E. M. Shaboornikova: Now we move on to the main part, which I was waiting for very much, in any case, it is the main one for me, because now we are all together, in a large group work, trying to create a single thought image that will be woven from everyone's consciousness, acquiring a separate shining facet. The Secret Doctrine will help us, of course, to weave this image. At the second Congress, we discussed Stanza I, Shloka 1. At this Congress, it is the same Stanza, Shloka 2. It is unique, it speaks about time and duration, Elena Petrovna already gives an understanding of Logos in it. This is very important, because the previous speaker spoke about birth and Creation, but there is a lot of confusion, because the Secret Doctrine is not studied deeply, and it gives a fundamental description of forms, States, milestones and Laws. First there was the first creation, then the second creation. And birth, sorry, occurs only on the Plane of manifestation. So, Elena Petrovna Blavatsky, the Secret Doctrine, the first volume. I give the opening speech to the honorary guest of the Congress, Vilena Sanjeevna Dylykova-Parfionovich. Vilena Sanjeevna, we are waiting for the continuation of your book, because all your transcripts and translations are, of course, a unique work, this is the esoteric essence of any teaching including the Secret Doctrine. Thank you, we are listening to you!

V. S. Dylykova-Parfionovich: I'll start with an explanation. The thing is that when we translate Tibetan texts, we always find people who write about Tibet and report new scientific data. From the very beginning, as soon as I took up Tibet, there were such personalities as Hungarian Choma de Kereshi, Elena Petrovna Blavatsky and Elena Ivanovna Roerich. My personal acquaintance with Yuri Roerich led me to the activities and results of the entire Roerich family. Therefore, I was interested in the question, how Elena Ivanovna and Elena Petrovna were connected with the Cosmic vision of the world. I found out on my own that at that time people had a huge interest in this issue, even those who, in general, had nothing to do with Oriental studies. Among them there was also a very gifted, now we can say it, brilliant scientist Choma de Kereshi. He was interested in where and how the Hungarians found themselves in Europe, so he left Hungary and went to look for the homeland of his fathers, passed through all Russia and ended up in Tibet. Where did Choma de Kereshi end up? It happened to be in the Himalayas, and I define this area as Darjeeling. Everyone who has managed to get to this area of India knows that this is a special place, where Indian civilization is directly connected with the Tibetan civilization, since the entire culture of the Tibetans, starting with writing and religion, is borrowed from ancient India. And here in the same place, in Darjeeling, but at slightly different times, there was Elena Petrovna Blavatsky, who was also led by an interest in India. She was a very capable person, let's put her directly among the Great women of our Land. This area was inhabited by preserved Mahatmas. They hid in the Himalayas after Buddhism was destroyed in India in the 12th century. And they have managed to hide and create until now. They needed students to pass on their knowledge. Because sooner or later their being on Earth may end. Thus, Choma de Kereshi, an enthusiast and a person interested in the problems of the origin of our planet, was on his way to Mahatmas. You know, they trained Choma de Kereshi as a tibetologist so well that he is now considered the founder of Tibetology. Moreover, I should note that all those around him who knew him, in general, treated him with contempt, reviled quite openly, calling him a madman. And so, imagine, this madman mastered the Tibetan language to the extent that no one could master it at that time, I mean Europeans. Therefore, when the 200th anniversary of Choma de Kereshi was celebrated nowadays, it was a holiday for all the outstanding tibetologists of the world, and all the students who were going to study the Scriptures of the Tibetan Canon. I'm just explaining that the fame that has overtaken our two great women is very fair and revealing. As a person who has been engaged in Tibetan civilization for many years, I have read Elena Ivanovna's works on Buddhism quite widely and seriously, and I have not found a single mistake in them that I could find fault with. Elena Ivanovna had such a brilliant mind and such a brilliant pen that I congratulate you on that. In addition, Elena Roerich translated the works of Elena Petrovna Blavatsky. Due to the fact that I am engaged in Kalachakra Tantra, followers and fans of Elena Petrovna's works began to bring me various materials, including translations of Elena Roerich. Do you know what struck me? I was struck by the fact that I came across a scientific presentation of the Universe, that is what I specifically do, and it is set out in the "Secret Doctrine". Elena Petrovna, having encountered her Teacher in the Himalayas, struck him with her outstanding mind, so she was able to accept the teachings of Indian Mahatmas. Since I am specifically engaged in translating non-preserved Sanskrit texts about Kalachakra Tantra, I immediately noticed the difference in the presentation of materials and processes of our Universe. The fact is that the Kalachakra Tantra texts themselves have not been preserved and have not come down to us in Sanskrit, there are only some preserved commentaries, but they are not so intimate and close in content to the source that they are perceived as the original Kalachakra Tantra texts themselves. I was working on the first chapter, you can even call it a book, as the Chinese and those who are engaged in Chinese civilization usually do. And the first book was called "The Structure of the Universe". In this way, I entered the world of all researchers of the space that is close to us, together with the Roerich family, Elena Petrovna Blavatsky and the outstanding Choma de Kereshi. Even at that time, he partially translated a passage from the Kalachakra Tantra. You can imagine, so much time has passed, and I only deal with texts, work with dictionaries, and I saw what success the people have achieved, the ones who do not have an education in Oriental studies. I attribute this to their brilliant minds and outstanding abilities, which they were given, of course, by their parents. That time was a time of search, and these people were distinguished by extraordinary erudition, education, and efficiency, so they managed to grasp the entire system of our universe, and they did it successfully. I began to remember how I could have read what Elena Petrovna had presented. It wasn't in the Tibetan texts I was studying. And you know, I guessed that the Tibetan Canon has a continuation, it is also a huge Canon called Tanjur, it consists mainly of Tantras. Tantras are mystical tractates, a huge number. But they differ due to the fact that they are commentaries compiled and expounded by Indian pundits. So that it was, what Elena Petrovna Blavatsky translated and expounded from the words of her Teachers, it is an exposition of the summary of the commentator's tractate, in general, quite large and extensive. It is written by Indian Pandits of antiquity and is preserved in the Buddhist Canon called Tanjur. I can say this with sufficient evidence, since in my hands I have the Tibetan text of the Kalachakra Tantra, partially expounded, which is the basis of the Indian commentaries. I congratulate you on that. I will end with specific material related to the Kalachakra Tantra. The main character of Kalachakra Tantra is ADI Buddha, whom we call the Primordial Buddha. It is to him that the Shlokas are dedicated, since he is the most important person in Kalachakra Tantra. He, ADI Buddha, has no beginning or end, he is not associated with anything. He symbolizes compassion and emptiness. And he is known as Kalachakra. I translate this into Russian. Compassion is a method, the method in translation from Tibetan means "masculine". Emptiness in this text is translated as "wisdom "and means "feminine". Thus, the combination of method and wisdom gives us the image of Kalachakra as the Wheel of Time. In this case, Kala is the Sanskrit name for Time, expressing its relative aspect. And the word "chakra", which we translate as "wheel", expresses emptiness. Kalachakra, as the Deity depicted on all the tanks, along with his partner Goddess and consort, is the embodiment of Unity and proves that he is Eternal and beyond duality. I am quoting a passage in verse from the Buddhist Canon. These are comments on Kalachakra Tantra, which are contained in the same first volume, where I took all the texts related to Kalachakra Tantra. So you can trust me that I know how the Indian Pandits' commentaries on the sacred Tantras are composed. Finally, as always, I will tell you in detail what I do, so that when you buy these books, you can have a complete picture of the work I have done. I will give a literal translation from the Kalachakra Tantra: "Any person who has a true perfect imagination, like another, shares the nature, the essence of the three time periods of emptiness, or shunyata.". Transcript of this literal translation: "The fully completed, formed planet Rahu, which owns the planet Ketu, and its own constellation Scorpio, separated from the Milky Way constellation, the Moon, the planet Venus, and the constellation Mule." I will read you again a translation of sentence number six: "Atoms or minute particles of all kinds, moving into the center of empty space, into the middle of the sky, are equivalent to the paths of motion of the illusory dreams or the roads for the streams of illusory dreams." Decryption: "the perfect full Moon and the North Star saw the likeness of Saturn walking, stalking in the middle of the sky, sleeping or asleep." As you can see, the transcript is devoted to the structure of the Universe and the description of the planets. The literal translation refers to the Buddhist tractates, which set out the truths that the Buddhists put together in their tractates on Buddhist philosophy. I will also repeat that what I partially read yesterday and finish boring you with serious translations. Literal translation: "The all-knowing, contemplating and considering the three bad odors, are equally free from them and from disconcerting and disturbing thoughts." I attach here, to this literal translation, two versions of the transcript. The first option: "the perfect and all-knowing Mercury saw that the constellation of Ashlesh, the constellation of the Pleiades, the constellation of Virgo, as well as the fully formed planets Rahu and Ketu, represent the constellation of Mule." This is the first version of the decryption. The second version of decryption: "a perfect and omniscient Mercury, adopted or took Ashlesha constellation, or the constellation of Hydra, and the constellation of Pleiades, and separated Ketu which did not become fully real planet." Thank you for your attention.

Evgeniya Shaboornikova: Vilena Sanjeevna has now given us the basis for the reversal of space, or the Universe, which originates from the void. This is exactly what has not yet happened, the state that the first Stanza tells about. The first Stanza, the first Shloka, describes such an impulse of the "Mother Giving Birth", which is the universe, and which in the same way first creates and then gives birth. The second Shloka and the third Shloka and the subsequent Shlokas tell us about that what did not happen. But, please, look at the subtlety: telling about that what did not happen, Elena Petrovna gives in the comments a description of what will happen. And then we can use these energies and concepts associatively, in a comparative aspect. With your permission, Vladimir Vasilyevich, may I read the Shloka? We have a speaker today, a member of the Theosophical Adyar society, President of the Lodge “Adamant”, Vladimir Vasilyevich Yary. I will help. Shloka two: "THERE WAS NO TIME, IT RESTED IN THE INFINITE BOSOMS OF DURATION." Colleagues, we are waiting for comments and please, raise your hands. Who has prepared at home? Who has completed our homework for the year? There was a homework assignment a year ago - to study this Shloka during a year and tell us about your vision. Konstantin Alekseyevich, please.

K. A. Zaitsev: I want to say that in the first sentence, from the first words, the paradox is evident: "there was no time." "Was no" is a form of the past tense, and the question immediately arises, how can the category of time be applied to the absence of time? Recently we held a seminar dedicated to time at the Moscow Theosophical society, and we pointed out that when there is no time, there are no "first" and "then" intervals, and all scientific methods of knowledge cannot work, because any scientific method of knowledge is the science of causes and effects. And here we cannot approach this state in this way.

Evgeniya Shaboornikova: Thanks a lot. Do you have any opinion on the fact that we can say about Time that it "did not exist"? As soon as we say "it is", "it will be", or "it was", we are already talking about the category of time. You are welcome.

Dmitry: You know, the first Stanza, it describes the States associated with... well, this is my opinion, with the Plane of the Gods...

Evgeniya Shaboornikova: Excuse me, what's The Plane of?

Dmitry: In your drawing - with the Plane of the Absolute, it describes the states associated with the Plane of the Absolute.

Evgeniya Shaboornikova: We don't have a Plane of the Absolute yet, because the Absolute doesn't have a Plane.

Dmitry: Absoluteness, yes, it describes the state of Absoluteness at the beginning of the cycle, I correct it, thank you for correcting me. And Time, it seems to me so, that this category is finite, and since the Absolute is infinite, that means, there was no time, in this state it turns out, as if it were not present. It is not present because it is not infinite.

Evgeniya Shaboornikova: Thanks a lot. I think it's an interesting approach when we just take one word out of context, and then we find ourselves in a state of contradiction. But all contradictions disappear when we look at what is said next: "IT RESTED IN THE INFINITE BOSOMS OF DURATION." Time is always there, but it is manifested and unmanifested. "Rested" – it has not yet appeared. Time is the structure of potentiality, in the moment. And there is an eternal structure that is always present - the category of Duration. We have a man in the gallery holding his hand, please, give him a microphone. Please, introduce yourself.

E. A. Mironova: Yevgenia Alexandrovna Mironova, member of the St. Petersburg philosophical society. When it is sayd: "THERE WAS NO TIME", I just wanted to go back to the previous one, you can define it in one phrase: "this is a state of consciousness", but what it is, it needs to be deciphered. Well, the shortest phrase.

Evgeniya Shaboornikova: Thanks a lot. I would clarify this point, it is erroneous, because the category of consciousness begins exactly with the category of time. "THERE WAS NO TIME" because there was no consciousness to fix it. Please, Vilena Sanjeevna.

V. S. Dylykova-Parfionovich: Studying the book "the Practice of Kalachakra" by an American tibetologist, I was faced with the problem of space and time. And before translating his book "the Practice of Kalachakra", I presented an article on space and time in Tibetan Buddhism. I will not talk about the content, I will talk about the results. I came to the conclusion that both time and space are energy.

Evgeniya Shaboornikova: Thank you very much. Vladimir Vasilyevich, did you want to say? No? That’s all, thanks. Let's... Oh, please, Dmitry.

Dmitry: Excuse me, may I ask Vilena Sanjeevna about her conclusion? So you have come to the conclusion that time and space are energy, energy in its unmanifested form, do I understand you correctly?

V. S. Dylykova-Parfionovich: At a certain moment, sooner or later, the energy begins to manifest itself. If we are going to talk about the origin of our galaxy, then in Tibetan treatises the description usually begins with the fact that there was some kind of fluctuation. This fluctuation, which is indicated in the Tibetan language, in astronomical treatises and astrology, I defined as energy. Only later, after it was necessary to designate the time of the appearance of this energy specifically, then, according to Kalachakra Tantra, the concept of the year arose. This is the first definition of time in Kalachakra Tantra. I have just written and translated about this, and I can say very accurately that at certain times time disappears and time appears, and its definition always changes a little, because concepts do not stand still, but develop over time. Thank you.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Thanks a lot. Please, Sergey Pavlovich.

S. P. Roschupkin: I wanted to say about time a little bit from the physicist's point of view. For today, we actually consider that it is such an ephemeral value, on the one hand, it is not directly determined. We define it through cyclicity, there must be a cycle. Therefore, the lack of time can be understood that there was no cyclicity, and there were no fluctuations, as respected Vilena Sanjeevna said. This is the first. Second, I’d like to say that the law of conservation of energy is related to time in physics today. In fact, we can assume that time generates this concept of energy. There was a fine Leningrad physicist, Nikolai Kozyrev, who worked at the Pulkovo Observatory. He introduced the concept of the second dimension of time, and from his point of view, even the process on the Sun is no longer considered a thermonuclear reaction, but the burning of time. These are very interesting thoughts, so energy and time are very much related concepts, and there is no energy in the absence of time. The appearance of time generates energy. I've been very, very close with what you said dear Vilena Sergeevna. Thank you.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Thank you very much!

Vladimir Yary: Yes, may I speak?… Yevgeniya Mikhailovna… The fact is that there is the cycle, and there is also the energy of time, but where? "In the infinite Bosoms of Duration." And so Yevgeniya Mikhailovna said that we should fully perceive the Stanza itself, in its entirety. If we start separately, we will have such a paradox. But here, in the Stanza, everything is said: it also rested "in infinite Duration". What did rest? An impulse or vibration, because Duration itself is the Eternal Breath. And the reason for this Time that was at rest is a vibration, and this is, I would say, an esoteric side that cannot be determined in any way, but we can imagine it. And here imagination is just necessary, that is, a cause-and-effect relationship, because the cause-and-effect relationship is the cause of cyclic Breathing, there is already a cause in it, the causeless cause of everything. And this causeless cause of everything is, as they say, "IN THE INFINITE BOSOMS OF DURATION." Everything is already there, as a potency, which then becomes a noumenon and this noumenon becomes a phenomenon. And when the Time will come is when the phenomena will occur. Thank you.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Excuse me, I would like to clarify one point… When Sergey Pavlovich spoke about energy, he said there is no time, so there was no energy. Is it correct? Now I want to say this: we can't say that there was no energy, and there was no time. It was at rest, that is, it was unmanifested, energy and time were not manifested. This word is always missing, and this, I think, is an important clarification. Mikhail Nikolaevich, please.

Mikhail Nikolaevich: A small comment on this. The fact is that the appearance of all the formative forces, or, as they are called, the Sons of the Dawn of Manvantara, happens due to the manifestation of the cosmic law of periodicity. That is, the law itself began to work, and through it there was a reflection of this causeless cause, the Absolute. It is very difficult to understand, because of our own way of thinking and the possibility of knowledge – they are limited. The possibility of knowledge is associated with the Dharmas, with that what is given to the senses as light, sound and so on, for the mind these are the Dharmas, they are certain qualities, so they are still not ripe enough so that we can comprehend the action of the unmanifested time itself which begins to manifest because of the law. And it is also appropriate to say, so that we understand the whole context, that the first Stanza of the Secret Doctrine relates to the universal cosmogony, and the subsequent Stanzas, even in the first volume, relate to the Solar system, to its cycles. The second volume relates to human evolution. And this co-scale will help us to some extent approach these complex abstract concepts.

E. M. Shaboornikova: One moment, please, one comment about the law, which begins to act. You said that there was a causeless cause, that this was the law. If we are talking about causeless causality, then we cannot talk about any law at all, it is latent, and the law manifests precisely the cause, and not the causeless cause.

Mikhail Nikolaevich: ...when the law begins to work, of course, the cause begins to work.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Yes, yes, the cause, and then there appear Nidanas and a breathtaking wheel of Nidanas...

M. N. Chiryatiev: Yes, thanks to this law, Builders and forms are already appearing, the Second and Third Logoses are beginning to work, and so on...

E. M. Shaboornikova: Yes, Yes, Yes...

Vladimir Yary: One can add a little bit here.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Please.

Vladimir Yary: The Absolute law, this law of Absoluteness, has always been there. When we talk about the first Stanza of Dzyan, the law of Absoluteness as such exists, it exists invariably. The fact is that it did not fade, but it was in its corresponding inhale-exhale phase. This is a phase of partial Pralaya: we think that there is nothing there, but in fact there is a process, and we will never understand that process, because it is an absolute one. The process itself, it is always there, but in its own state, inaccessible to us. And this is the most important beginning of meditative understanding, which requires sense-knowledge, that is, intuitive thinking. The Secret Doctrine is the great practice of meditation, that’s what it is, this is the awakening of imaginative thinking. From letters we get syllables, from syllables we get sensations of consciousness – this is such an amazing thing, this is part of meditation - not sensations of the senses, but sensations of consciousness. If we continue to read, these sensations will be associated with clairvoyance, that clairvoyance is called the "eye of Dangma", which "feels". So, the first Stanza prepares us for this feeling in advance, prepares to enter into these states of primordial emptiness, which is the great absolute fullness. Therefore, reasoning about the Absolute as such is excluded, because we are nobody, but we are ready to enter into these states.

E. M. Shaboornikova: One small clarification about Pralaya. If we are talking about Pralaya, and we are talking about the beginning of Manvantara, or the dawn of Manvantara, the state before you wake up, which is described in the first two Stanzas, then we are talking about partial Pralaya, because there is no complete Pralaya, there is a partial Pralaya. Julius, please!

Yu. L. Golshtein: Thank you for the opportunity to speak on such a significant topic, the most significant and serious one. But first I’d like to say something else, here the person next to me said about the causeless reason. This is the purest and highest classic of spiritual philosophy, because the logic here is not Aristotelian, but multidimensional. In the Jain system, or in some other Buddhist systems, there is a seven-part logic, that is, it is a multidimensional system, where on the one hand it is seen as such, on the other hand, the conclusions seem to be completely contradictory to the first. And it is very important who exactly perceives, who is the original subject of perception, we must not forget about this. This should always be kept in mind in any higher research. Vladimir said very well, in relation to the highest classical knowledge, which I touch: indeed, it is impossible to know the Absolute by any logic. The timeless is not comprehended out of the temporary, even by the subtle temporary. But there are so-called secret possibilities, these are special states, states of Samadhi, Nirvikalpa Samadhi, even Savikalpa Samadhi - this is the maximum possible touch for a being of the human form.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Thank you very much, back to the first Stanza, Sloka two. Partial Pralaya, before there was no even time, much less the state of Samadhi. Lyubov Nikolaevna, please!

L. N. Mezenova: Dear Theosophists, let us clarify. We are talking about the first Stanza, and the Secret Doctrine, the first volume, is very clearly structured. The first Stanza speaks of the first Plane of Being, not of the Absolute, but of Absoluteness. The Absolute is the fourth Plane of Being, and Absoluteness is the first. And our esteemed guest said quite correctly to pay attention, where the Absoluteness was. It rested for Seven Eternities. Energy appears after the Seventh Eternity. Why not after the Sixth and not after the Fifth? Because there is an immutable law of changing the quality of space, about which Vladimir Vasilyevich said. When everything is ready, then comes the energy of Absoluteness, which passes, awakens the second Plane, the Plane of the Divine Mind, or the Paranishpanna of the Gods, the Nirvana of the Gods, as we call it. Just there a cycle appears, and while there is no Time, we can't fix it by our minds, because there are no even Gods yet and there is no their mind. They are in a potential state, the Divine Plane has not been manifested yet.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Yes, it will be shown again in the second Stanza. We will talk about the potentiality of the Divine Mind. Thanks. When we were talking about the cycles, Sergey Pavlovich, I think you were the first to say that when there are the cycles, everything starts. If there is no cycle, nothing starts. The cycle is always here, so there is only a partial Pralaya. If there were a full Pralaya and not a partial one, we would not be able to discuss it, there would be nothing to compare it with. And we are in a cycle. There is a cycle when consciousness is awakened, Time begins, Manvantara begins, and there is a cycle when it just dies down, but it is eternal, this cycle, and this eternal cycle is called Duration.

V. V. Yary: It is good when the Secret Doctrine is systematized, which was done by the Kemerovo school, by Vladimir Anatolyevich Bakanov, it is so easy to enter into meditation, when there is a method. And with this method, some special wisdom is gained. It is correct to say that the great sages never spoke about Absoluteness, or about the Absolute itself, because this is spirit-matter, this is the fourth Plane, The Plane of Prototypes, where there is the Absolute in the form of Parabraman and Mulaprakriti, male and female, spirit-matter. And we are now just considering the category of Absoluteness. It is instructive that we have this system of Planes of Being, that the Secret Doctrine is systematized, then at least we can produce images, not to mention these high concepts. Absoluteness is the thinnest matter for human perception, it is his ceiling.

E. M. Shaboornikova: I'd like to get to the Comments. We were now in Dzian itself, and this is correct, but then there are Comments to it by Elena Petrovna herself. You know, there is a method that has been tested by the school of theosophy, and by various Theosophists who accept group work in the study of the Secret Doctrine: being in the Dzyan Stanza itself, in all these energies, and taking pure concepts, we then go to the Commentaries. That is, first there is a focus, and then a certain differentiation, when we start collecting conceptual images from the Comments. That is, first there is one, according to the Secret Doctrine, then there is a division into the concepts that Elena Petrovna gives us in the Comments. And then it is very useful to go back from the Comments to the Dzian itself, to the pure Shloka, and reflect there. Then all the concepts that we collected in the Comments begin to play with other facets. I have a suggestion to follow the Comments. Elena Petrovna writes: "If there is consciousness, there is time, there is illusion." That is, there are three steps, three aspects. It is said that the present is a mathematical line. This mathematical line of the present is the eternal duration between the past and the future. And here there is a geometric image, it is simple: there is a certain emptiness, a circle, and there is the very mathematical line that is the present. It divides space into the past and the future. In one aspect and in the reflection of it. You can look the other way around: then the future will be on top, and the past will be on the bottom. When it all merges together, divide this Plane, connect, then you will have one mathematical line, this is an infinite Duration. Elena Petrovna then begins to talk about aggregates, what is an aggregate? There is a comment: "all changing and different states from the moment of appearance in material form to the disappearance of the Earth." And these aggregates exist forever: in the future they pass gradually through the states of space through the matter in order to exist in the past forever. If you can, let's think about this topic, I think it's very interesting. As a result, to get this mathematical line, or linearity, two Eternities, the past and the future, must merge together, and only in one of them true existence is possible. So we say that time is finite and Duration is infinite, but space exists even where there is nothing else. Space exists even when there is nothing, there is not yet that mathematical line that is present, Duration, and this smooth transition from the future to the past, where the past is another eternity. Your feedback.

V. S. Dylykova-Parfionovich: Let us remember that India is the birthplace of mathematics. Therefore, I will now only talk about numbers, without going into definitions of what is emptiness, what is completeness, and what is the Absolute. Because everything starts from zero, then there is a unit, I'm talking about the symbolism of numbers, and according to this symbolism, with adding each unit all the time there is a process that can be defined as energy. Can you imagine? I speak quite clearly, since I have been in contact with physicists for a long time due to the fact that, while studying the Galaxy, one must necessarily learn physics. When I came to the number "3", it became clear to me that "3" is the main number in the tractates of the Indian Pandits, and in our understanding of the universe. If we add three more to three, we get the number" 6". The number "6" is the basis of the yoga practice of Kalachakra Tantra, namely the number "6". This is called six-part yoga. If we multiply the number "6" by two, we get the number "12". If we add six more to the twelve, we get "18". But if we add three more to the six, we get a "9". "9" is the number of so-called planets, that is, to understand our Galaxy, there were main planets enough, of which there were "6", but still for completeness it was necessary to add three more. Therefore, the planets Rahu and Ketu appeared, which really should not be considered. If we turn to the famous number three sixes, three times six gives just this combination of "666", which we call magical and associated with all negative ideas. If we look at how many days the great battle of Kurukshetra lasted, that's 18 days, that's two times nine. You see, if we study very carefully all the numerology laid down in the Mahabharata, we will be able to understand the whole process very briefly and accurately, from the point of view of mathematics. This process was based on the understanding of an Indian mathematician who discovered a sequence of numbers from zero to ten, and this discovery fit all further astronomy, physics and other exact Sciences. But we must also remember that there is such a thing as a point. Not a line, but a dot.

E. M. Shaboornikova: We'll get to the point now. Here's another line unfolded, Vilena Sergeevna. Thank you. Continuing the idea about numbers and numerology, saying that from zero there is differentiation to the infinity of numbers. I‘d like to draw attention to the fact that the zero state, or the very point of zero, is a Single True Essence that passes into each number. Each number contains a zero. And this zero defines this linearity at infinity. This is the state of zero. Elena Petrovna, after describing aggregates or linearity, gives already the concept of Logos in the first Shloka. Let's look at the state of Logos. The point is transformed, the very state from which everything begins. This linearity, or mathematical line, which is the true Duration, exists when there was no Manvantara, no beginning. And the point appears exactly when the Three come together in unity. When we see the dot, there are already the Three. If you and I drew a line, there are already seven, this is the movement of the Ray. Elena Petrovna speaks of the first Logos as a point that, while passing through, gives a display of the next Plane in the space, reaches the next state of concentration. The first Logos, which is the Unmanifested, is followed by the second Logos. And the most interesting thing is that in the next Plane, in its display and continuation of movement, the dot gives the first duality. And we can see the geometric surface of the Third Logos. This is Mahat. Are there any comments? We have ten to fifteen minutes to finish the discussion of the first Shloka. And I would like to parse the concept of Devachan, that's with what E. P. B. finishes up the Comments for Shloka two of Stanza one.

K. A. Zaitsev: This is a small comment on the previous one. Indian mathematicians did introduce the number "zero" into mathematics, but in India there are two concepts for the number "0": "Shunyam", and there is also such a mystical number "Purnam". The first is emptiness, and the second is fullness. And it's like an unspeakable number. And when we talk about infinite Bosoms, maybe something is connected with this. Maybe it's just the zeros that make a million out of one. This is not the zero that is "nothing", but the one which on the contrary multiplies everything and makes it complete.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Yes, this is a transient state. Therefore, this zero is in every number. We are not talking about figures now, because figures are forms of numbers, and we are talking about numbers. This is the divine essence of figures. A figure is an external form, it is mathematics. The great geniuses of mathematics discovered numbers, and each number is a movement of the Divine Essence, these are other concepts. These are Theosophical concepts that are given in the Secret Doctrine. And about fullness and emptiness. We know that Elena Petrovna says that emptiness does not exist in the space, because every emptiness is a complete completeness. There is a concept of complete completeness - that it is emptiness. And this is an apparent paradox, but it is a single concept. This is mapping. I can see that Ritva wants to say something. Give her a microphone, please.

Ritva Lappi: I could say a lot. I won't comment much. It seems to me that time is long intervals of thoughts, and separate moments in space. And when we can stop our flow of thoughts, then time disappears for us. I wouldn't comment too much here, I just want to thank you very much for your performances. And especially to say thank you, Vilena Sanjeevna. You have a real diamond of knowledge. Thanks!

V. S. Dylykova-Parfionovich: I'm talking about the definition of emptiness, according to the Kalachakra Tantra. Why do they say that there is no emptiness as such, because they assume that something always and constantly disappears somewhere. So what disappears, appears in that what we call emptiness. Therefore, there is no emptiness as such.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Thank you very much. Description of Devachan. "There is no past - the Ego would remember it with regret. There is no future - the Ego would dream of it. But there is a state of bliss, everything is present in the present moment. There are no ideas or concepts about time. Everything seems to be a live and vivid dream, indistinguishable from reality." Elena Petrovna finishes Shloka two with this description of Devachan. I would like to ask our distinguished colleagues to comment on what they think. What is there where there is no past? The ego would remember it with regret... And there is no future, the ego would dream of it, it is a state of bliss. Try. Let's raise our hand first, then ask for permission. Then you are allowed. I beg.

Y. L. Golshtein. Thanks. I see that the question is very difficult to answer, for a real answer. Now, the Ego as a structure that is illusory in itself does not exist. It can only be seen as existing within the time frame of the past and future. Here is the answer.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Thanks a lot. You had some comments, you raised your hand, I'm sorry, I didn't give you word. Give the microphone that way, please. Introduce yourself.

Alexander Grigoryevich: Alexander Grigoryevich, Saint Petersburg. I raised my hand when we talked about time in the beginning, and to say about time, I would like to read the Shloka. May I? "There was no time. It rested in the infinite Bosoms of Duration." When I read it alone, I read it in silence. If we talk about time, about this Shloka, it is unpredictable. And when we talk about it, we talk as individuals, because that's how we were born, to communicate as individuals. But there are things that a person can't say. And in silence, we can only transmit this information through the vibrations of the heart.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Thank you very much. When we talk about the beginning, as you say, we should do it in silence, it is there that this sense-knowledge arises. When we talk about Unpredictability, it is the Absolute that is not predictable. And time, sorry, time is predictable, because it is illusory. And we are just talking about this illusion, identifying the cause. Therefore, there are the Planes of Being, structured ones, Lyubov Nikolaevna sent us there, very clearly. No, there are three Planes of the Spirit outside of Forms, the first three of which are indescribable, and all the others are predictable. Do you know why? Because Elena Petrovna gave the "Secret Doctrine", she dedicated it to all true Theosophists in order to make time predictable. Because it is an illusion. The indescribable is only Eternity and the Absolute.

Alexander Grigoryevich: We need to talk about time, I said it right away. And I’d like to add that what this Shloka ends with, the last line, the last sentence. "And these two eternities constitute the Duration, the only one in which everything has a true existence, if only our senses were capable of perceiving it." That's what Elena Petrovna is talking about. That is, whether we are ready to accept.

E. M. Shaboornikova: The fact is that there are no feelings on these Planes. The feeling will come later. The senses, as a pranic state of mind, are from the Plane of the Gods, which is second to the Plane of the Spirit beyond Forms. It will be displayed in the first seven-ray star. And the very Jew we talked about at the beginning of our conversation will be reflected in a six-ray star, will give it duality, or the very prana, of which the Material and Educational Plane consists. And it will give, the same feeling - subtle astral, which gives its reflection on the manifested plane. These feelings are in question. Of course, this Plane we are talking about is beyond the feeling. That is, there are three Planes of the Spirit outside of Forms - there are no feelings there. Are there any other comments? Mikhail Nikolaevich, please.

M. N. Chiryatiev: Nevertheless, what you have said, speaks of regret at the same time. You know, I have such an association: in "Living Ethics", and in the comments on Living Ethics, which to some extent are "Facets of Agni Yoga", it is often said that the past cannot be changed, but the future can be changed. And now, when you spoke about dreams, it is just the future that is being changed now, changed by our thoughts. And even at this moment, we are also creating this future, even talking about the past. Another point is quite important in the context of what we are saying. Every object that exists and every phenomenon is a cross-section of Infinity. Because they touch Infinity at the beginning and at the end. But any object and any external phenomenon are finite. But its constituent elements are infinite. This is very important, because it leads consciousness to the Infinity of life itself, to eternity, and to the relativity of the world of phenomena. Because even when we talk about time, we speak from the position of three-dimensional consciousness, because in the subtle world time is already completely different. Because we need to move away from this three-dimensionality, and spatial three-dimensionality, and three-dimensionality of consciousness, first of all. In general, Elena Roerich called this view of multidimensionality from the perspective of three-dimensionality "dog psychology".

Vladimir Yaryi: I would also like to support the idea that time is a substance of the fourth Dimension, time itself. And if we really use our three-dimensional consciousness to talk about this substance of time, then we will always be in the illusion of this image, because we will not make it up in reality, we will not make it up for our awareness. Therefore, we must first enter the state of four-dimensionality, and we are called there, to this Subtle World, so that we must accept it. And for this purpose we are given just the Dzian Stanzas. They prepare us to enter this state of timelessness, when we are like zero. We must become like this zero, this white disk on the black background. This is the first point, then there will be a second point, then there will be a third point. And these are the degrees of reflection of our spirit, this is memory. So, when we begin to enter the fourth dimension, in other words, to become a friend of time, we have conquered the consciousness of separation by the consciousness of unification. That is, the synthesis appeared. As soon as synthesis occurs, time frees us. That is, it is no longer a jailer, but a teacher and friend, the time itself. And so the fourth dimension is defeated by the fact that we are just coming out, or becoming, creators. Because only synthetic thinking allows you to do this, that is, duality disappears. When duality disappears, past and future, they are created together, in the now. And this is compared with the state of Devachan. Because in Devachan just such a state exists in a person when he has no past, when he sees everything in the present and everything in the present is transformed before his eyes. All the future is happening now in him. And so for him, as if there is neither future nor present, but there is that time cycle of birth on Earth again, this is the state. So Elena Petrovna compares this state with Devachan.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Thanks a lot. Please, Sergey Vitalievich.

S. V. Kolganov: Thanks. I’d like just to remember from the perspective of the history of philosophy that there was such a wonderful Christian thinker, Augustine the Blessed. He thought about the problem of time for a long time, and he had this insight. It is in the fact that he didn’t devide time into past, present and future, and he talked about the present past, the present present and the present future. Why? Because for finite beings, for people, really there is a past, a present, and a future. And for God, there is only one continuous present. And so, when a finite being joins this state, it is such a sampling, he falls into one infinite present and, accordingly, for him there is neither one nor the other, the person is in a God-like state. So, from the point of view of history of philosophy, this is how it can be interpreted.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Thank you very much. Lyubov Nikolaevna, please.

L. N. Mezenova: Thanks. It's about Devachan. This is a very interesting state. And Elena Petrovna has a lot of materials about Devachan, she describes it in detail. We must understand that Devachan is a certain Plane, a certain state of consciousness. First, this Plane is sevenfold, and after death, after the transition, we can get into any of the sevenfold of this Plane. Second, when consciousness separates and enters Devachan, it experiences three distinct stages: the growth of spiritual accumulations, the peak of experiencing these spiritual accumulations, and then the extinction of these spiritual accumulations. That's when the extinction occurs, the law of Karma comes into force, which makes it possible, as they say, to form a spiritual consequence of the previous incarnation. Buddhism compares this state to a bird that hatches eggs, that is, hatches a fruit, or consequence. And only then does the law of Karma enter, and the power of Tanha - the desire to live - arises, and the consciousness again goes to incarnation, collecting all its skandas, or attributes of personality, and incarnates on the planet Earth. So the Plane of Devachan is very interesting. There are separate topics on this plane. They were heard at seminars. Thanks.

V. V. Yary: But we must still refer Devachan to the state. It is certainly on one of the Planes. But this is a state. The state of the present. This state is like this.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Konstantin Alekseyevich, please, and we will finish.

K. A. Zaitsev: Yes, from the previous speech, which was well-reasoned, it is quite clear that everything is fine with time on subtle planes. Accumulations take place, etc. The Mahatmas' letters also refer to these worlds as to the "worlds of consequences." So I would not say that there is no time for subtle planes. There is Karma there, it also works. And Daniil Andreev, by the way, described time as a separate dimension, described that there are dimensions of space, and there is a dimension of time. He suggested that there might be more than one of them.

E. M. Shaboornikova: We did not say that there is no time in the subtle plane. On the subtle plane, there is not only time, there is already a lot of other things, there is all nature already. We talked about the Planes of the Spirit outside of Forms, there is no time there. This is Duration, it gathers on the Plane of Prototypes, and from there time begins. When the state of Devachan is just fading then this first differentiation begins. Of course, time already exists on the subtle plane, and nature is already there.

Vladimir Yary: The fact is that Devachanic state contains the principles of time. This is how the principles of time differ - only by the same cyclicity. There is a cycle of maturation, then maturity, fading, that is, there are such cycles, this is causality. The cause of time is cyclicity.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Please, George Georgievich, your comment.

G. G. Hmoorkin: Thank you, some words literally. First, I support the participant in the fact that you can refer to the letters of Elena Ivanovna and to the "Living Ethics" about Devachan. The second point about time is that on the subtle planes, space-time categories undergo extremely serious transformations. It is enough to take the classic work of Raymond Mody on the condition of the people who returned after clinical death. They write that everything is completely different there. Not as we perceive on the earth plane, where there is the past, the present and the future time – it’s a kind of linearity there. It's completely different there. And the third point, the concept of Devachan is not introduced by theosophy, or living Ethics, it is not a discovery of the late nineteenth century. These concepts can be found in Buddhism from the fourth to fifth centuries AD. This is the Tibetan word - here Vilena Sanjeevna will not let me lie - Dewachen, or Debachen is a Tibetan word which is the translation of the Sanskrit "Sukhavati". If anyone is interested to find out how the state of Devachen is viewed by Buddhism, and quite ancient one, then you can simply use the word "Sukhavati" to find a description. This is the tradition of far-Eastern Mahayana Buddhism, Pure Land Buddhism, Amitabha Buddha, etc. Here getting into these spheres of Amitabha Buddha is getting into Devachen, although, of course, this tradition cannot be absolutized, because after all, over time, Buddhism imposes certain imprints. That’s all. Thanks.

E. M. Shaboornikova: Thank you very much. Dear friends, let's go back for one second to the Dzian Stanza itself. Let’s sum up. "There was no time. It rested in the infinite Bosoms of Duration." And so we talked about it for almost two hours. The next is Shloka, which we will deal with at the next Congress. We are finishing the Congress in Saint Petersburg. We are currently implementing the project "Competition of Russian cities". And our Congress starts traveling through the central part of Russia, and it returns to Moscow in 2023. Therefore, we will wait for you and travel with you. And next year, we will be analyzing Shloka three. "There was no Universal Mind. For there was no Ah-Hi to contain it." A year is enough, let's be diligent students. We are waiting for discoveries. We are waiting for scientific research. Thank you so much for your brilliant knowledge, for this profound understanding that you showed the Theosophists today, Vilena Sanjeevna Dylykova-Parfionovich. Thank you.


"Round table" - full printed version